Moving Running Forward: Ken & Carla
This is the first of a five-part interview series with members of PPTC’s BIPOC running community. This series focuses on conversations with runners of color in our club about their experiences as a minority in the club. Further, this series is part of a larger effort of DEI initiatives in the club and beyond.
Moderated by Allan Co, this interview is with Carla Benton and Ken Des Vignes.
Allan: It’s great chatting with both of you: I encourage you to be as open as possible along those lines.
Ken: I'm from Trinidad and Tobago and the Caribbean. I went to medical school in Grenada, which affords me two years of basic sciences in Grenada on the Island itself. And then my two years of clinical experience would have been in New York. So that's where I did my rotations.
Allan: Can you both talk about when you first started running, what drew you specifically to running, and specifically to [PPTC]
Carla: I've been running since I was in high school, so almost 18 years now. I moved to New York to attend NYU, and I kept running on my own while I was in school; I did some short New York Road Runners races here and there, some 4-milers and the Fifth Avenue Mile, things like that. I actually joined the team a few years later after I did a speed workout program at the Red Hook Track with JackRabbit and Coach Cane of City Coach in the summer of 2013. I was training for the marathon and they didn't have a fall program in Brooklyn, so I looked around for others and decided to do Coach Tony's next session.
Ken: I started running only in 2018, I started on [a] weight loss journey. I was a little bit wider than I look now–rounder in the face–and I just wasn't too satisfied with that sort of appearance, and how I felt overall. Going into medicine, I thought that it would have been somewhat of a mismatch, telling people what to do when I didn’t practice it, you know? Or encouraging people what to do, and I don't practice it.
I started running on the treadmill, and eventually I took it outside. So that's when I started running. I can't remember exactly when I made the transition from treadmill to the road, but I started running outside and feeling much more comfortable with it. I can't remember what gave me the idea to look up road races. And there was one in particular that was a 5k in Bed-Stuy. And I did that. Didn't like that distance–almost died–and then I decided to look up some, uh, longer races, and I did the Bronx 10 Mile, and then the Staten Island Half Marathon.
Ken: “…there were the very real social determinants of health and race related issues as it relates to health and how minorities are subject to, you know, inferior health care or outcomes, stuff like that. It really started to open my eyes and have a better understanding, and caused me to go read more.”
Ken: So I started looking for running clubs in the area: I live[d] in Crown Heights, I looked up running clubs in the area, and I think Prospect Park Track Club and the Crown Heights Road Runners were the two that came up. So I followed those two groups. At the end of the Bronx 10 Mile race, while we were traveling home...Johnny [Nuzzela] and Mary [Johnston] were right next to us. I never met them as yet, but I knew that that's who he [Johnny] was from following them on Strava. I walked up to him and I was like, “Are you this guy? Are you Johnny?” And he was like, “Yeah!” And he was like, “Oh yeah, you should come out to the club, and you should join and hang out with us or whatever. So that’s how I joined!
Allan: It's funny, ‘cause I feel like Johnny is one of the people that would actually be totally okay with you creeping on him like that [laughter from Allan, Ken and Carla ensues]. The first question sort of in that vein is how do you self-identify, and or how do you think you present at all?
Carla: I'm half-Peruvian. My mom immigrated to the States to do her residency after med school; my dad is white and from the US. I identify and present as Latina and don’t describe myself as white. My parents only spoke Spanish to my twin sister and me until we started preschool. I spent most of my childhood in Houston, Texas, but then I attended high school in a small town in Oregon.
Allan: For me, my assumptions that I had were based on your upbringing in Texas and you know, participating in Facebook posts and everything. And I know that your sister has written about these issues as well in Runner’s World.
Ken: So first of all, I would say I'm Black. You know, I'm not a naturalized American, so I'm always termed African-American, but you know, not naturalized. I’m a permanent resident here through my dad. He's also from the Caribbean, he's from St. Vincent and the Grenadines; he's Black as well, African-American now that he's naturalized and a U.S. citizen. But added to that...I think there have been terms in the past. I don't know if it actually presents on forms and, um, like official documentation things like, uh, Afro Caribbean.
Allan: Carla, I'm very interested in what you have to say, being a runner from Texas, and then a runner in New York, and being a runner in a small town in Oregon as someone who's not white. Like: How do you find the running scene in New York City (and specifically in PPTC) as it relates to race?
Carla: Well, that small town in Oregon, that's the most homogenous place I've ever lived. My sister and I were teenagers when we moved there, so as soon as we got there, we were both thinking, I can't wait to decide to go to college wherever I want, and we both eventually wanted to be in a big city again; that move was definitely a culture shock.
We were the only Latinas who were distance runners on the track team; I don't remember that being a reason to shy away from doing certain activities, although I didn't join track or cross-country until the second half of high school. I just wasn’t a very athletic person before then, but I joined to put it on my college applications.
My coaches were very encouraging and influenced me to continue with it when I went to New York. When I was in college, I mostly just ran alone around Manhattan, learning my way around it, doing races here and there. That for sure I would say was isolating, just because I didn't really know any runners; I didn't know a lot of people who were into doing that kind of thing, going for an hour-long run before class in the morning.
Carla: “We were the only Latinas who were distance runners on the track team; I don't remember that being a reason to shy away from doing certain activities…”
Carla: When I first moved to Brooklyn I looked into joining PPTC, but at the time, the website was not user-friendly. I think the group meeting times didn't really work for my schedule, and I didn’t know about the club’s other events and traditions. And so I just abandoned that idea until a few years later when I wanted to do group speed work.
When I first joined, I felt it was inclusive. I joined to do Coach Tony's program; Coach Tony himself is an immigrant, and an example of great leadership in the group. And I joined not long before I ran the marathon, so that was my first time wearing the singlet; even though I didn't know very many people, I felt it was super encouraging to be recognized and cheered on, and it really helped me on a day when I had a tough race.
When I finally did join PPTC, I’d lived in Park Slope for most of my time in Brooklyn, right by [club president] Tom Meany. At the time, I used to see him while running in the park almost every morning, because he would always be power-walking in the opposite direction, wearing PPTC gear. And when I finally joined the club, he approached me and said, “We live on the same street, I see you every day...it's about time you joined!” I might've joined sooner if anyone had mentioned it to me all those years before. Who knows?
Ken: I have not been to a lot of, like, general meetings or events. I think I could count on one hand how many events hosted that I've been to. It's always been inclusive when I was around. I never felt out of place. I never felt like this. I've not seen many Blacks or African-Americans at the events that I went to, but I never felt like I was out of place. I never felt like it was: Hmm...I don't feel comfortable here. Definitely I felt like I was in a minority, but not in a bad way.
In all the running that I've done, I've been to maybe two Sunday runs, or Saturday runs, long runs. All the other running that I've done would have been either tempo workouts, or track workouts with the speedy runners. So that's the group that I know more intimately than the larger group. And I've always felt comfortable with you all: I never felt out of place. I know Yves would not have run with us all the time, so I would have been the only Black guy there, but I was okay with that. And I never felt out of place.
“But especially after the Ahmaud Arbery incident, in the back of my mind, I was always...I’ll tell you this. I started to look up, like, the neighborhood more. I started to plan my routes more. ”
Ken: But I would say my experience was similar to what Carla experienced when I came to Cleveland. Because first of all, it's snowing almost every other day here. And it's super cool: It's like in the teens and low twenties...I don't like it. But a lot of the times that I run outside, I'm by myself a lot of the time. I live in Shaker Heights, and I am usually the only Black guy running around almost every single time that I run outside. And it kind of feels a little bit weird, you know? It's definitely not like running through Brooklyn or Manhattan or the Bronx.
It's completely different. It's almost suburban in Shaker Heights proper: A lot of big houses, no fences, open lawn. I would say that in the back of my mind, especially after the Ahmaud Arbery incident, I just felt a little bit more aware. Before, I was, like, free. I was like: Yeah, I like, I wanna run. I wanna run wherever; I don't care about things like that.
But especially after the Ahmaud Arbery incident, in the back of my mind, I was always...I'll tell you this. I started to look up, like, the neighborhood more. I started to plan my routes more. Before, I would never really run with my ID, or stuff on me. I started running with my hospital ID now. ‘Cause I said to myself, My New York ID might not be enough. So it just made me more self-aware. I was like, This is not like the New York scene anymore.
Allan: Can you speak about – either of you – about ways that your ethnicity or your race has impacted your running? Ken, you kind of brought it up when you talked about how you go through certain neighborhoods, you are defaulting to a treadmill, you plan your routes differently. Anything like that as well. The example that I always give is there's a race that I really liked that I did, the inaugural Helderberg to Hudson Half Marathon up near Albany. At a race of about like 1,500 to 2,000 people, I'm pretty confident about getting pretty close to the start line. Everything in the way that they were presenting was very inclusive, as inclusive as it could be, [but I don’t think they talked] specifically about diversity or inclusion. All their pictures were people who were Caucasian, [though]. It was very striking to me when I was in that race when I could turn around, and literally every single person around me was white. I wouldn't say that necessarily impacted my running, other than it gave me something to sort of pause and reflect about.
Carla racing in PPTC red
Carla: That’s definitely something I've thought about when I've considered some of these bucket-list races, especially in the Northeast, like Beach to Beacon or Falmouth. I’ve thought: Oh, that might be fun. And then, Oh, but if I go do that race, am I going to be one of the only non-white people standing there in the corral?
I do think it's worth saying when I decided I wanted to leave New York and move to a city where I barely knew anybody, being in a club like PPTC made me confident that I could do that, and I would meet plenty of people that way. It actually proved to be a little bit more difficult at first just because the...atmosphere around running clubs is a little bit different in Chicago. On an individual level, people are a bit friendlier than they are in New York. Like sometimes [before Covid] I’ve been on a run on my own and somebody running near me around the same pace has introduced themselves, and we’ve run together for a while. That never happened to me in New York!
Most runners here will usually say hello to each other, or good morning or whatever, even if they don't know each other. That wasn’t the case in New York.
“I’ve considered some of these bucket-list races, especially in the Northeast, like Beach to Beacon or Falmouth. I’ve thought: ‘Oh, that might be fun. And then, Oh, but if I go do that race, am I going to be one of the only non-white people standing there in the corral?’”
Ken: I have two really unique views or thoughts about this, and experiences. One is that running here – running through Shaker Heights – even before I started to like, really be thoughtful about where I run, um, because of what happened with Ahmaud...I would just...I say “hi” to everybody. Like I nod, I give a “what's up!” I'm just about my run.
I'm just happy to be out there doing that. People are usually generally receptive: If somebody is in their front yard, they will say hi, and I'll say hi, and I've never really had any issues with that. Interestingly, added to that, I remember I started to like, follow a couple of runners, just by looking at Strava and stuff to try to plan your run. I followed a couple of runners here. One guy, he's an anesthesiology resident at Cleveland Clinic: Scott Breeden is his name. We actually went on a couple of runs. And that was pretty interesting. He and I were good friends, and I didn't really expect that to happen because it's never happened before.
But the flip side of that is this: There was a Juneteenth run....And I was like: Hey, this will be a good chance for me to go meet new runners, interact with African-American runners, Black runners, from the Cleveland area, from the community. I went to the run. And, you know...I almost felt out of place there. And I was wondering if that was a function of me not being able to identify with the significance of Juneteenth, or was it me not being able to like...be social enough to go and introduce myself to anybody?
And nobody – nobody actually came up to me and introduced themselves. Nobody came up to me and was like, “All right, hey, yo, you're a new face,” because it was actually a particular club that organized it. Like: “You're a new face: Where are you from? What's up? Thanks for coming out, whatever.” It wasn't like that.
But I just went on the run, I enjoyed the run, they had like, a Reverend come and give some very motivational speeches, and talk about the significance of the occasion. To me...it just didn't feel welcoming to me. I guess they felt like, Oh, he's Black, and he's already a part of this movement, so...right on?
So the first race that I ever ran was the Bed-Stuy 5k. And it was put on by, I think, the Black Men Run Club. And it was the complete opposite: I was a new face at that race. And immediately after I crossed the line, there were people there like Knox Robinson and a few other familiar faces who are very active voices in the community. And at least five people reached out to me like, you know: What's your name? Where are you from? Are you from around here? Thanks for coming out to the race, good race, strong race; we have other events coming up… You know, race-related, activist related...they just reached out and connected.
Ken racing in the Bronx 10 mile
Allan: Do you think that that's because you are a Black man, and they were representatives of Black Men Run, or do you think that they were, um, sort of being boosters for everyone, because that's the right thing to do? Do you know what I mean?
Ken: I think it's a function of both. I don't think it was only because they are Black Men Run, because there were other runners as well there too who were people of color, who were new runners, who they did the same for. So I think it’s a function of both.
Allan: What are your thoughts about the protests, the social unrest, as it relates to social justice and race? Specifically the growth of activists running for protests. Or collectively, the actions groups are taking, the anti-racism statements that have proliferated since the spring [of last year], and other actions that people are taking.
Carla: I think it's disappointing that Ben Chan in particular has experienced pushback. I think his activism has been great, and it's been disappointing to see the kind of backlash he has received as a result.
As for a lot of the articles and other forms of media put out since then: It's unfortunate they couldn't really touch on the subject of race for a long time, because I equated it up there with that article in Runner’s World a few years ago about running while female, which was also a long time coming. Both come down to the idea that we shouldn't have to be worried about whether we could potentially die on a run.
Allan: Just to add to that, like, you know, the comparison between talking about being female when running and being a person of color when running. A lot of that comes up in this idea of how do you build empathy. I find that we're able to talk about being female when running. Especially in the past couple of years, what I find is that it's more challenging to talk about what it's like to be a person of color when running, I think that part of that is because there's an automatic recoil by some people to associate conversations about race with conversations about politics. I don't necessarily see that as being a parallel, but in thinking about how to build empathy around this conversation, I do often think about how we're able to build empathy around the conversation of being female when running.
Carla: Both are things that we can't hide about ourselves. People look at us and instantly see that. So it's not something that we can just choose to opt out of for the sake of not getting “political.” And I'm sure it was controversial for Runner’s World to run that running while female story, but ultimately even conservative white women could relate to it, which isn’t really the case when it comes to talking about race.
“I think diversity and running – and the activists’ message – is needed. It is louder and louder now than ever, but to get the message through to everybody will take an effort on, on a lot of other people’s behalf, just even more than us. ”
Ken: I had a lot of coursework with, you know, social determinants of health. And it was only through doing those modules and coursework and stuff, and actually now having to go do practical work and go into communities where, you know, there were the very real social determinants of health and race related issues as it relates to health and how minorities are subject to, you know, inferior health care or outcomes, stuff like that. It really started to open my eyes and have a better understanding, and caused me to go read more. I was pretty aloof to these things previously, and I had to go and read more.
Coming out of these protests which, as you mentioned, started last spring, what I found unfortunate was...how politicized it became. Where people started missing the point of the genuine activists, and how it started to become shrouded in almost like the violence that started to break out. The protests that became violent, everything started to take up the message, and the genuine push to bring these issues into the forefront and into the light started to be pushed to the back burner, because of how much people started to talk about the negative impact of the violence, or the effects of rioting and looting and stuff like that.
I think diversity and running – and the activists' message – is needed. It is louder and louder now than ever, but to get the message through to everybody will take an effort on, on a lot of other people's behalf, just even more than us. That's why I think it's important that other groups, other platforms, speak up, like Carla was saying. I know Runner’s World may have initially taken a hit when they first posted that article a few years ago. I remember that article as well. And there was a lot of backlash and voices about it. But people started speaking up and saying: Where are the articles about diversity? Are they starting to come out with those more and more? And I still think they're getting backlash about that, but it's timely. Where were they? We need them more.
Allan: This is an exercise in building empathy: How can readers better empathize with the challenges of runners who are people of color and what they face? What's the message you want to convey to readers in line with that idea of empathy.
“Speaking as someone who knew the club existed for years and initially had the impression it wasn’t a fit for me, I would hate for a prospective member to look at the Instagram account and get the impression they wouldn’t fit in before even showing up to experience it.”
Carla: One easy way—whenever bigger group gatherings become a thing again—I think is just to, you know, be more open and conversational toward new people to make them feel welcome, so they’ll consider coming back if they feel people actually notice that they're there and value their presence.
PPTC seemed more inclusive when [we] first joined [in 2012/2013] and it's not necessarily that way anymore: I think technology might have a hand in that. I think it definitely makes people a little bit more self-absorbed. Back when I first joined those speed workouts, I don't think Strava existed yet. I wouldn't even bring my Garmin to those workouts. I would just pace off other people there, and I got to know a lot of people that way. People are definitely a little bit more concerned with themselves nowadays, to the point where they might not even notice diversity can be an issue in certain settings of the club until other people have to point it out to them.
And I know it's been brought up before that the team’s social media channels could be improved to more accurately portray the diversity that can be found in our club. Speaking as someone who knew the club existed for years and initially had the impression it wasn't a fit for me, I would hate for a prospective member to look at the Instagram account and get the impression they wouldn't fit in before even showing up to experience it, so I think this is a particular area that could benefit from more careful attention.
Ken: Yeah, I would say I think one of the best things – in addition to what Carla mentioned that we can continue to do – is exactly what you're doing here, Allan. Continue to have the tough conversations, continue to have tough conversations about race, about diversity and running, about the issues that people of color face within the running community (and outside of the running community). Those tough conversations need to be had, and need to be documented so that other readers could read it, you know? And absorb it.
A lot of people are just hearing things hearsay. But if it's in a published format where people actually will say: Listen: You pushed this out? And have it...you know, people will read. And I hope and pray that they understand, that they gain more empathy, patience, mutual respect. From there, we can only hope that there's growth, you know?
PPTC is a diverse and supportive team. We want to celebrate the diversity of our club and membership, and encourage everyone to share your stories with us.
Questions & interview moderated by: Allan Co
Text by: Carla Benton and Ken Desvignes
Edited by: Alison Kotch
Produced by: Rachael DePalma