Moving Running Forward: Swetal & Erica
MODERATED BY ALLAN CO, THIS INTERVIEW IS WITH SWETAL PATEL AND ERICA HARPER.
This is the third piece of a five-part interview series with members of PPTC’s BIPOC running community. This series focuses on conversations with runners of color in our club about their experiences as a minority in the club. Further, this series is part of a larger effort of DEI initiatives in the club and beyond.
This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Allan (He/Him)
When did you first start running, and how long have you been a member of PPTC? What drew you to running specifically?
Erica (She/Her)
I've been running consistently, for the last five years. I joined PPTC in 2019.
First, I ran casually by myself and walked in the park. Then I bumped into a group of people running in Brooklyn Bridge Park and discovered that it was part of NYRR’s Open Run group. I started running with them. I made a lot of friends at Open Run, some of them were members of PPTC. So I knew of PPTC. I'm from Brooklyn, born in Brooklyn. I enjoyed the casual pace of the Brooklyn Bridge Open Run. But it wasn’t until I started training for the marathon that I realized that I had exhausted the resources that the Open Run offered.
And so I leaned on PPTC to push/get me to the marathon’s start line. I knew key people in PPTC: I knew what I was joining, and I knew what I wanted.
Swetal (She/Her)
I started running consistently in 2014. I'd run a few 5Ks before but didn't really train for them. I ran my first 10K that summer and my first half that fall. The following year, 2015, is when I trained for and ran my first marathon. So I've been running since then. I’ve run with several clubs and I became interested in PPTC last summer mainly due to its overall mission. Having had some friends on the team engage me about NYC Running IDEA also led me to PPTC. The funny thing about this is that I live five minutes away from Central Park, so I'm based in Manhattan. I don't have any plans on moving to Brooklyn anytime soon, but that doesn’t matter!
And my biggest running goal is to run my three hometown marathons...London, Boston, New York City. I’ve only managed one so far (4x), and injury prevented another. That and the other city across the pond are where my family can come out to cheer me in full force!
Allan
You mentioned that you had friends on the team and that you had heard PPTC was more inclusive. I want to know more about that and how that led to your decision to become more active with PPTC.
Swetal started running regularly in 2014 - 7 years! 20 years ago she was only climbing mountains.
Swetal
Last March when the running world changed because of the pandemic and the lockdown, many run clubs and runners I knew became more active on social media, particularly in Facebook groups, to keep spirits up and maintain connections. There were lighthearted discussions on many topics, and at one point, I saw this one guy, an older white man, make a comment in which he called Chinese people “bat eaters.” And that was really offensive to me. I’m not of Chinese origin, but it’s racist. It’s horrible.
Not everyone sees every single Facebook post and that I totally get – but I was offended, and I reported it. And I quickly realized that when it comes to race and racist language and calling things out, that was a little bit new, especially in a white-dominant running community. It was just one example, but I don't think many of those around me completely understood everything and why I was bothered. That was before the whole Black Lives Matter [movement] was elevated in the national consciousness and the global consciousness.
“the definition of anti-racist is: Speaking up. ”
swetal
I mentioned the comment I read about Chinese people because to some, it may be something seemingly small but in reality part of a much bigger issue. If something similar had been said about any other race - or other groups or other reasons having nothing to do with race - I would have still been bothered.
That, and then the reactions that I saw in March, April, May and after, when a lot of these racial and discriminatory discussions became part of our running community, because we and many of those we knew were affected by them, especially when it came to NYRR…
On more than one occasion I’ve had white running friends say to me – Oh, I was afraid that someone might call me a racist, so I just decided to disengage from any conversation. They purposely chose to remain silent even if they might have been bothered by something. Or I’ve heard on multiple occasions that racism and discrimination (there can be many kinds) don’t exist within run clubs or our NYC running communities, and that we shouldn’t be having these conversations among ourselves at all.
Most clubs out there are not perfect, nor are organizations and companies of any kind. But the one thing I found about PPTC, and saw as very impressive is that PPTC realizes that and as a club is actually having those very open conversations from the top down. And it's not just the people of color, it's white members leading those efforts as well. And why does that matter? It shouldn’t have to be just people of color who constantly have to speak up about these issues, even when they don’t personally affect us. It’s a huge burden to have to, and yes, even within the running community.
Erica at the 2019 NYC Marathon!
Erica
I know NYRR, and I know the community of running in New York City. When I was growing up, I grew up on the Upper West Side. I'm fairly familiar with Central Park and Riverside. New York Road Runners historically has been a white elitist organization. So when I found out five, six years ago about NYRR Open Run and how they were doing outreach I was like: What the? You know, I was surprised. Luckily, I got involved with it. And someone told me that it had to do a lot with Peter (Ciaccia, former President of NYRR) getting out into the communities, and reintroducing running to the community, and opening up the running world to New York City.
But as a child growing up in New York City, we didn't run. That wasn't something that a Black person would do. We didn't run, because it was deemed that we were doing something...bad. We were running away from a crime, or something like that. So that was something that we did not do. Especially Central Park: Central Park has been New York City's premiere park; young Black people were really not allowed to enjoy the park comfortably. That wasn't our place to go: Our area in Central Park was above 100th Street, you know, above that transverse - 102nd Street. That was our area. It's so interesting because running has a low cost barrier to entry, right? But it's not for everybody. The cost is so much higher on people of color.
Allan
You know, you both bring up some really good points that lead into this next question that I had another one: Both of you already sort of talked about it, but I just wanted to put this question out there again to reinforce it. How do you find the running scene in New York City? How welcoming do you feel things are, and how often in running-related situations do you find yourself in the minority, and what is your reaction to that?
Erica
I'm in the minority in a lot of things that I do. A lot of things I like, I'm going to be the minority. In my workplace, I am the minority. I was raised that way. When I approach situations where I'm the one that's entering, I'm the only Black woman of color entering in the room, I have to put my armor on. What I’m going to do is get what I need to succeed in that particular arena.
“But as a child growing up in New York City, we didn’t run. That wasn’t something that a Black person would do. We didn’t run, because it was deemed that we were doing something...bad. We were running away from a crime, or something like that. So that was something that we did not do. Especially Central Park: Central Park has been New York City’s premiere park; young Black people were really not allowed to enjoy the park comfortably. ”
Allan
Do you find that's true on your group runs, and PPTC, and races?
Erica
Yeah, definitely. I knew when I was going to PPTC, I needed safety. I needed safety to run in the morning. I live 5, 10 minutes from the park. I know I do not belong in Central Park, Prospect Park, at 5/6 o'clock in the morning by myself. I'm a woman, I'm Black. That's crazy. And I am aware of that, but I knew I needed protection. PPTC being there, Tuesday morning, at 6 o'clock: That was my protection. So I joined PPTC for protection, to train, and to run the marathon. Before signing up, I went to a lot of the social group runs, I knew several people that attended the group runs there.
I knew before I committed to filling out the application and paying the membership fee, that I would put myself out there to get into the clubs and do what I have to do to make it to the marathon.
I do a lot of check-ins with myself: I won't be the shy person in the back of the room, because before coming into the room, I already completed my checklist. I want to be comfortable in the places that I am in. And so I make the comfort in that room.
Swetal
I think for me – in terms of being the minority and feeling like that outsider? For me, it's been more in my career. I'm petite, of Asian origin, and a woman. People think I'm younger than I am. So I’ve had many instances where even though I had more than a decade’s worth of experience, people would sometimes introduce me as being an entry-level employee. That’s tough when, for example, it happens at an event you’re hosting in front of 250 people and you don’t have the opportunity to get the last word and correct people’s misconceptions of you. That affects promotion opportunities, everything. I’ve also worked in many white male-dominated companies, which is hard for any woman, but particularly a woman of color. There’s nothing like seeing your name in a different colored font (referencing female, minority) than everyone else’s up on a big screen presentation to realize you’re a token.
In running, I’ve been part of white-dominant clubs. I’d say in all, there were a few other people of Indian origin, like me, and others of Asian origin. Fewer Hispanics, and hardly any Black people.
“One of the things I noticed last year was that if I was starting discussions on how racist comments and discriminatory actions aren’t okay...no other minorities would really speak up, at least not consistently, and if they did, it seemed that I always needed to be the initiator.
And so when it came to taking the hits, it was always me.”
Allan
Something that’s interesting that someone said yesterday was that it's really hard to specifically think about how you act differently as a minority in running, and to divorce that from how you actually move through the world as a minority. These are things that you constantly deal with, right? And it's how you operate in a world as the minority. When I think about running and the incident Erica put out there with like, it's supposed to be this low barrier thing.
Going off of this, Is there anything specific that you noticed about running/ running clubs that has made you feel excluded as a minority?
Swetal
I've noticed a lot of cliques, who hasn’t? Minorities always do and yet often it doesn’t even always register with us because we’re so used to it. I’ve often tried to give feedback when I’ve noticed those cliques - that they were exclusionary - but they were filled with the dominant people in the club who didn’t realize they were being exclusionary. You can’t be an “inclusive” run club, organization, company, et cetera, as so many are communicating they are, if you can’t first realize that you’re exclusionary and need to willingly and with conscious effort want to change that. It’s not going to happen naturally.
And keep in mind, I was often part of the “in crowd” within those run club cliques, I wasn’t always excluded, and yet I still recognized and felt uncomfortable for those who were. Exclusion in running isn’t just based on race or ethnicity. I have many friends running at slower paces who have constantly felt excluded from post-race team pics, or post-race brunches, or not having anyone stick around to cheer them to the finish. This has also rightly been brought up in Diversity discussions as something to change. But I think that’s still a lot easier for most people, most white-dominant club members, to feel sympathy for than putting yourself into a different racial or ethnic minority person’s shoes.
One of the things I noticed last year was that if I was starting discussions on how racist comments and discriminatory actions aren't okay...no other minorities would really speak up, at least not consistently, and if they did, it seemed that I always needed to be the initiator. And so when it came to taking the hits, it was always me. The angry comments were always directed at me, either publicly or behind my back. And as far as I know and from what friends have told me, others didn't have to really deal with it.
Erica donning her NYC Half Marathon medal post-race.
Erica
When you find your voice, you can't expect people to back you up. You can't rely on anybody else to meet your level of your voice. And a lot of people don't have the voice. So it's easier for them to hide behind somebody else. It's up to the person with the voice to move away from those people. I understand that when we are approached with situations that people, our friends, our allies will speak up too, but a lot of people don't have it.
Swetal
This past year was very eye-opening for me, feeling so much opposition for speaking up on behalf of others, not even myself. And then months later when every run club, organization, company wanted to come out with their “anti-racist” statements and yet not really do much more... the definition of anti-racist is: Speaking up.
Allan
In addition to these experiences that you’re sharing – that have been hurtful, or negative, as they relate to race and running – I wanted to talk about positive experiences related to PPTC, or running in New York that relate to race, and running.
Erica
When I joined the conversation with NYC running IDEA, and I understood that it was open to any club members or whatever, anybody in the running community, club affiliated or not, I got some of my friends in and said, “Hey, we need to join this club.” No one showed up, and it's okay; it's fine. But there's not a lot of visible people of color on the call. Okay, that's fine. When I decided to join PPTC, people were like, “Oh, Erica, why don't you just join Black Girls Run?” You know? I kinda knew then that there weren’t going to be a lot of Black people on this call. And I’m like, “Will I be the Black voice on this call?” Let's see what happens.
Allan
It's interesting to hear Swetal say “white-dominant clubs,” because I think a lot of people do think of PPTC as a white-dominant club. And I wonder...what do you think of the actions that are being taken right now? This is a wide ranging question: What do you think of the protest and the social unrest as related to social justice and race, specifically, the growth of activist runs, runs for protest? And then what do you think of the anti-racism statements?
“The BK Half...my most consecutively run race out of them all! Well, until that COVID hit.”- Swetal
Swetal
Regarding the run club anti-racist statements, on one of the NYC Running IDEA calls last year, I said: BS. Ninety percent is BS. And many clubs’ prominent members and leaders have come out and said that it’s true. It’s not that the intentions aren’t there, there hasn’t been sufficient action or actual compliance. Most clubs don’t want to take that hard of a stance for various reasons, and there are different levels of tolerance for different people. And I did not come up with the term “white-dominant club”. I heard it from an esteemed white member of PPTC who I greatly respect!
Allan
Right. And you know, we talked about it yesterday: A lot of things are performative, right? And they're going to seem performative until they're no longer performative. But, how do we get to that point?
Swetal
For PPTC, just to have the President of the club – Tom Meany, who is an older white man – start every call and have the first few sentences out of his mouth always mentioning inclusivity. That includes racial inclusivity, and many other things...just the fact that he even mentions it. And it's always in his intro words. That is a really big deal. I've been talking to many PPTC runners and they're like, “Yeah, we've got so much to do,” but...I'm familiar with all these things, from the running world and elsewhere. And, you guys are so much further along than so many other clubs. I know there's a lot to do, but just the fact that you have so many people within the club...I'm impressed by the white teammates who are speaking up. That’s what we need more of everywhere! On top of all the great work PPTC’s POC are doing.
“Most companies or organizations [that] put out the anti-racist statement kind of put their foot in their mouth with the first sentence: “We no longer will be racist.” I’m like, okay: So yesterday, you were? Okay. I got it. Let me keep moving.”
Erica
Most companies or organizations [that] put out the anti-racist statement kind of put their foot in their mouth with the first sentence: “We no longer will be racist.” I'm like, okay: So yesterday, you were? Okay. I got it. Let me keep moving. The abundance of companies are putting out these statements without really understanding what they're saying. They thought that they had to say something really quick. And what they said really quick was very wrong, very wrong.
Swetal
And the top of the list was NYRR.
Erica
With PPTC, I got involved because I did not like how they – how we – “toting” the guest speaker in July. I forgot his name: Black guy. All of a sudden, we are putting him on social media, announcing that he's going to be at our general meeting for a meeting that's not open to the public. I was like: Okay, all right, fine. All right. Maybe we are going to do this for everybody going forward. The next month? Nothing. Nothing from communication, nothing from social media. And I was like, “Hey guys, what's going on? Did we just like, tote a Black guy because he's Black and because it's in the moment, because we want everyone to know that we’re inclusive?”
It is the equality of the whole thing. Don't put me in because I'm Black. Put me in because I'm a runner. I don't see any reason why at this time we have to...showcase this fake persona. “Get all your Black runners, and kind of hashtag them [on social media], like, pull them out."
When you brought the question up, Allan, and I asked the question to the diversity committee, they said: “Oh, it's a challenge.”
Allan
When you asked the committee about homogeneity, like the all-white...
Erica
Right? Yeah. First I asked: What's the blog's purpose? What was the goal? What’s the aim? And if it's just to feature club members that are board members and team captains, okay, fine. Then people of color just need to be in those places to be featured. But that's not what they (the Diversity Committee members) say. They say “anybody.” But why is anybody always the white members? And they say, “Because there's a challenge to get people like myself and people like Swetal onto the blog.”
“It is the equality of the whole thing. Don’t put me in because I’m Black. Put me in because I’m a runner.”
Allan
To me, they've also said that, “You know, it's a challenge to get people of color to participate, to agree.”
Erica
Let's not use the word “challenge” to deter us from figuring out why. You have to say: “OK, here's a challenge: How many people have you asked, how many people accepted, and how many people did not, and why? Maybe we need to shift our focus of how we ask, or how we feature. And that's why I'm sitting in front of you. Because I was like, listen: If I'm going to...naturally, I would not, because I know what they would do. But I'm going to make a change, I have to be the agent of change.
Allan
I had one question I just wanted to cover really quickly. How do each of you self-identify, and how do you think you present?
Swetal
I don't identify as Asian-American, partly because Asian-American in the U.S. is vastly, predominantly seen as being of East Asian descent. I'm of Indian origin, but even Indian-American is not completely right, because generations of my family have lived on four continents. I was born and spent my early life in Europe, which still has an influence on me. So if I had to identify myself in some way, it would be as British Indian-American. But of course, that’s not how the US would categorize me!
“For PPTC, just to have the President of the club – Tom Meany, who is an older white man – start every call and have the first few sentences out of his mouth always mentioning inclusivity. That includes racial inclusivity, and many other things...just the fact that he even mentions it. And it’s always in his intro words. That is a really big deal.”
Erica
This is interesting. So I was born Black, then I was raised African-American, and now I’m African-American, not Hispanic.
Allan
I think the point of this series is to really give a window to people who don't think about this at all into the stuff that people of color deal with ... in running, but also in everyday life. What we're trying to do is build empathy. When readers read your voice, what do you think can help them better empathize with the challenges that BIPOC runners face?
Erica
When you see me run – when you see me outside running – treat me like a runner. Regardless of me being a female, regardless of me, me being Black: See me as a runner. I should be respected as a runner on the street. When I go to Prospect Park, I just go straight up Vanderbilt and I'll go straight to the park. Just running up Vanderbilt to get to the park is different than if I'm running, or I see a white runner running. A white runner can run, and everyone's like: “Oh, that's a runner. That's a runner. I'm going to move aside; that person can get the space to run.” I'm running; I don't get the space, I got to zig-zag, I would slow my pace to get the parent and the child away. But you know, I don't receive the same respect when I run.
Swetal
There's self-awareness, that's needed first. People have to take a look at themselves and first come to the understanding that they don't know everything. And that self-awareness, it requires a lot of work. And I think people are...they're just kind of blind to that, because they think they already know everything that there is to know. Many people also don't want to take that time and energy to do that self-work, to kind of get out of that privileged culture that they've lived in, that they don't see as being privileged. Right? And I also still have a lot of work and learning to do. I’m not excusing myself from any of this.
Allan
It's hard. No...it's easy to virtue signal, but it's hard to do the work, right?
PPTC is a diverse and supportive team. We want to celebrate the diversity of our club and membership. We welcome and encourage everyone to share their stories with us.
Questions & interview moderated by: Allan Co (he/him)
Text & photos by: Erica Harper (she/her) & Swetal Patel (she/her)
Edited by: Alison Kotch (she/her)
Produced by: Rachael DePalma (she/her)