Moving Running Forward: Jennie & Mario
Moderated by Allan Co, this interview is with Jennie Matz and Mario Patiño.
This is the second piece of a five-part interview series with members of PPTC’s BIPOC running community. This series focuses on conversations with runners of color in our club about their experiences as a minority in the club. Further, this series is part of a larger effort of DEI initiatives in the club and beyond.
This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Allan (he/him)
How long have you been running? When did you start running, and how long have you been a member of PPTC?
Jennie (she/her)
I'm one of those runners who thought they were a big deal running two miles twice a week for about a decade, before I made it a regular part of my life in 2014, when I ran my first marathon.
I joined PPTC that fall because a friend and neighbor who also happened to be training for NYCM said, Come along to this meeting and don't pay for Jack Rabbit’s training program. Join this club because you'll get so much more bang for your buck. And I really did get so much more bang.
Mario (He/HiM)
So I started running in 2009. I was dating a woman who ran cross country in high school. She got me into running. A couple of years later, I ran my first marathon in Philadelphia. I ran the Boston Marathon with a charity bib the year of the bombing. Luckily I was not very fast, so I wasn't anywhere near the finish line. Since then, I’ve run Istanbul, Philadelphia again, and Toronto. [But running] is something that I picked up over time. In 2017, I moved back to New York and joined PPTC in the fall of 2019. I was looking to meet fellow runners, find new people to train with, and build community around a shared interest.
Jennie seeks harbor from the cold this winter.
Jennie
I got sucked in [to PPTC] right away. PPTC filled a void: enhancing my social life and providing some training structure. After lurking for a while, I volunteered for races and social events. For the past few years, I've been involved as a board member, and am currently on the Membership Committee and the Race Committee.
Mario
I finished my grad program in 2013 and then I went abroad. I spent the next six years working in humanitarian emergencies, including conflict and natural disasters. I worked with the International Rescue Committee in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Sudan and other countries, helping to design and implement food assistance, emergency cash, and economic empowerment programs. Running was one of the few constants that I had during that time, but it wasn't very structured (4-6 miles at the same pace). Once I got situated in New York, I was like, okay, I want to be a bit more deliberate about my training. I met some people that were members of PPTC through Off the Hook Track Club and November Project. I was looking to find a club that had a good mix of social and competitive aspects, you know, find people to chase and get faster. Based on the people that I had met, I felt like PPTC could be a good fit.
Allan
Both of you know that there have been a lot of conversations about running, and PPTC as related to race. Specifically looking inwardly, I want to try to address concerns that various people, various voices have brought up. It's a very timely conversation to have, but it's also, I think a conversation that's long in coming. Jennie, you've been a member for going on seven or eight years, right? I do feel like these conversations have sort of bubbled up and receded, and bubbled up and receded, and it's long in coming. So I think now there does seem to be organization behind looking into things a little bit deeper, and these interviews are one of the actions that people are taking. To pivot the conversation: How do you self-identify, and then how do you think you present as BIPOC runners?
Jennie
I'm she/her, and I identify as a Korean-American-immigrant.
Mario
I am he/his, I identify as an immigrant, as Colombian. I recognize that I present as white, and that comes with a lot of privilege. I'm able to code switch easily. A lot of times, I've shared spaces where everybody is white, and I’ve hid and/ or failed to embrace aspects of my identity as a Latin American immigrant.
“I don’t feel that the club is that welcoming. My perception is (was) that our club has a number of small cliques of people that have known each other for a while and run together. I don’t find that people go out of their way to make new members feel welcome.”
Allan
How does that impact that feeling of inclusion or welcoming in those environments, and in other places?
Jennie
I always expect to be in the minority. I don't go into a situation thinking that there's going to be more people like me. I'm more aware of it, as you are, when I step outside of New York City and it's blatantly white. As far as PPTC is concerned, we know that there are a good number of Asian members. I might notice that I'm the only female in a group, or I might be the only one over 40, but oftentimes I’m not the only Asian. We are welcoming, but we're not racially diverse. I’m fortunate to have a running pod that I want to socialize with outside of running, which means I feel welcome, safe, cared for, and sought after, which fosters a sense of belonging.
Mario at the 2019 Toronto Waterfront Marathon.
Mario
Maybe it's because I'm a newer member; I joined the club last year –but I don’t feel that the club is that welcoming. My perception is (was) that our club has a number of small cliques of people that have known each other for a while and run together. I don't find that people go out of their way to make new members feel welcome. In terms of code switching, I agree with you Jennie: I have done it for so long, and in so many spaces, that I don't even notice when I'm doing it. I have friends of color that I run with, however, none of them are members of PPTC.
All the people that I run with [in] PPTC are white. The core of our conversations are about running, how to get faster, workouts and training - they’re not conversations about race and racial justice - it’s pretty smooth. I’m in a number of group chats with people in the club, and there has been very little conversation around everything that’s been happening [with protest for racial justice]. It's great to see that the club has put out a statement on racial justice, and there is a committee that's dedicated to DEI, but it doesn't really feel like there is a club-wide conversation happening.
Allan
You guys come at it from very different angles: You, Jennie, you've been in the club almost as long as I have, and you've seen it: There has been a transformation, and Mario, you have a newer perspective. So it's really helpful. I think one thing that sticks out in my mind with Jennie is when she said we're very fortunate to have a supportive group of runners who you can share your experiences with.
Have either of you had experiences where someone who was ostensibly your teammate, your friend, or your support group, might not have shared that support for you when you brought up those conversations? Mario was saying, we're not as a club having these club-wide conversations. It's not something that people talk about. I wonder if you were to bring up your experiences, have you ever been in a situation where, where it did not feel supportive?
Jennie
I can't say that in the context of the club that I personally have, although I feel like over the years, I've certainly witnessed my share of questionable comments and discussions online. I’m cognizant that there are negative experiences and routine microaggressions that BIPOC runners in our club and within the running community experience and it’s... fatiguing. As far as PPTC is concerned, I've been treated with fairness, respect, and gratitude, but I can see, Mario, what you were saying is that there isn't more of an open, wider conversation about diversity. I appreciate that there are outspoken individuals and groups within the club actively working towards that transformation but why not fully publicize those efforts and make it an on-going discussion?
Mario
It's not just in PPTC – my workplace is in the midst of a diversity, equity and inclusion reset; they’ve brought in consultants and facilitated anti-racism and unconscious bias training for staff. While I am encouraged by the fact that these conversations are happening, I hope that they lead to actual change.
Jennie
I think this collective awareness – and even intention – is a good thing. I'm not turned off by performative actions, because at least it signals to me that an organization is taking a stand. And whether they make good on those intentions, or whether they've just broadcast empty words, will remain to be seen. Allan, perhaps you can sympathize as a parent: ideally, when we call our child out on their mistakes we want to do it in a way that will deliver expectations of good behavior; I don't believe there's a lot of currency in shaming.
Allan
So do you have any examples of how your ethnicity, or the way you present has impacted your running? And actually, Alison was running with another PPTC member [note from Alison: it was Koushik!] and he's Indian American. Something that he said was: “Alison, you being white and me being Brown doesn't impact the way we're actually running. But the experiences that we're having are different.” And I wonder: What experiences [can you talk about]?
Jennie basking in the sun during a snowy winter run.
Jennie
For me, this question can't be separated from how I move about in the world, just as a person. We run to fortify ourselves physically, mentally, and emotionally, but we find ourselves in these vulnerable situations if we run alone, or when we're running in the dark, or in unfamiliar places, or in form-fitting clothes. And while I'm in control of some of these factors, I can't avoid the fact that I'm a petite Asian female. I can't hide that so much. So there are layers of vulnerability to check off: Runner? Check. Female? Check. Minority? Check. My ethnicity informs how I interact with the world, and it's just another bullet in the vulnerability rung that I can’t separate as a person. I've been harassed for being female, and specifically for being an Asian female. I learned at a very young age that my identity is a target, and that I’m prey on multiple levels.
Allan
That’s actually really interesting the way that you frame it as having to check off these boxes of vulnerability. It's interesting to me, because I feel like there are a lot of challenges for female runners, but I do feel like one of the barriers that is being broken down is being able to have the conversation about sexual harassment. Right? We can have those conversations about what it’s like to be a female runner in PPTC. And I look at that other box of vulnerability like race, ethnicity, and minority, and I don't feel like we can't have those conversations in PPTC.
Mario
I present as a white male. That means it's very easy for me to go running at night, or at any time of day. The fact that I am Hispanic or Latino doesn't feel like a barrier to entry for me. I know that this isn’t the case for everyone who identifies as Latino and is black or brown. I could see living in another part of the U.S., and maybe even another part of New York, and not feeling comfortable having a conversation in Spanish with somebody on a run. I've spent a lot of time in Northern Iraq and Syria, and I would run, and people would look at me like I was an alien. What is he running from?
Allan
Are there specific examples you have – negative, but also positive - while participating in running-related activities, related to how you present, racially? Maybe if you feel unwelcome or particularly welcome because of your ethnicity.
Mario
I think what's interesting about running clubs is it's one of those communities that, if you're an extrovert, and you speak loudly, and you voice your thoughts in different spaces, I think it's a lot easier to get traction and visibility. I sort of worry about other people that are more introverted.
Allan
In the community development work that I do, people who are minorities are trained to have softer voices. And I think that is magnified when a social structure relies on social media. Did you guys want to talk about any examples or situations?
“My ethnicity informs how I interact with the world, and it’s just another bullet in the vulnerability rung that I can’t separate as a person. I’ve been harassed for being female, and specifically for being an Asian female. I learned at a very young age that my identity is a target, and that I’m prey on multiple levels.”
Jennie
I feel unsafe every time I'm harassed. Every time it happens in broad daylight, in a crowd. I like to run when I'm traveling so I can see more of a city, and what a place feels like during non-tourist hours. I like to note who's running, and generally speaking, at least in the places I've traveled, the men outnumber the women. So when I see a woman out there, and we kind of eye each other, and we acknowledge each other, I appreciate that. I appreciate that they're out there, and they're visible, and I'm doing the same for them. As a female runner that’s a positive experience.
Allan
It's really funny because it's small things like that, when I’m in upstate and see another person of color running on the trail, I definitely say “hi,” and smile. Because I know there’s a discomfort in being out there. I can appreciate that experience.
Mario
I think when the racial justice protests started, after George Floyd’s murder, people were collectively outraged. And I think that it has died down a bit. I feel like people have become desensitized to it over time. I run with a group of people in the club and they're great. I enjoy running with them. I also wish these conversations were happening more in those spaces and you know, maybe it's on me...
Jennie
The Run to Protest--runs that Coffey organizes are safe, and they're still happening every single month, precisely for some of those reasons, as you said, Black people are still dying and are still being murdered.
Allan
Something that Mario brought up: Maybe it's on you to bring up those conversations. It’s such a hard thing, right? The three of us can say or think about how we react when people ask: What can be done about this terrible thing?! Or How can we address these problems? And the idea of putting the mental weight on those who carry the burden is a hard one. So when Mario brings up – like maybe it's it's on him – maybe it's on me to bring up these conversations, I want to talk about that.
Mario and his partner, Amy, enjoying summertime in Brooklyn.
Mario
It’s also a lot of white people that I know are so scared of saying the wrong thing. So they don't say anything. Or agree with whatever’s said.
Allan
I don't know about you, but for me, whether people want to have a conversation or not, it's also the act of bringing it up several times, and being shot down several times, is exhausting. What do you guys think of that, about these protests, these runs, these runs for race? And what do you think of the anti-racism statements that have come up? One of the runners from November Project put out a statement, a blog post, about her experiences as a person of color. It seemed very cathartic, and it was a very good read, but very far-reaching. What are both of your thoughts about this?
Mario
I think it's great that these conversations are happening: I think there are a lot of people that are putting themselves out there, and being uncomfortable, and making other people uncomfortable. And I think that bodes well for the running community.
I used to attend November Project workouts, I am friends with a number of folks in that community. As an introvert, I never felt entirely comfortable. I prefer smaller groups, so larger group settings tend to feel less welcoming for me and as a result I’m less inclined to open up and share.
Reflecting on what made me uneasy about the group dynamics at large workouts is that they were centered around the most extroverted and outspoken individuals, which tended to be white people over people of color in that space.
Allan
Do you see any of those behaviors in PPTC?
Mario
I do. I think that as a group we tend to amplify the loudest voices, and limit opportunities for dialogue and reflection in the interest of time or efficiency. We can all be more mindful about how we occupy space, notice who isn’t speaking up in a meeting or on slack, and what actions we can take to make others feel more welcome. We can be more creative and open to doing things differently; this can be messy and slow moving at first but it’s also about allowing different voices to have a meaningful say in how things are done.
“ I’d ask people to ask themselves: Do you have to move about your lives in a way that makes you vulnerable? And if the answer is no, then use that privilege to empathize and advocate for better outcomes”
Jennie
I think your original question was: What do we think of the protests, and the actions that have gone up? I think they're necessary, and I think we should embrace them. Most BIPOC people I know recognize that everything IS racial and everything IS political. Why wouldn't we use this space where we spend so many hours, money, and where we forge important relationships? Why wouldn't we include this platform as an organizational entity that concerns our health, our capital, and our visibility as a political force? It's very relevant and absolutely necessary, and long in coming.
Mario
When it came to New York Road Runners, Rebuild NYRR, and the allegations that led to Michael Capiraso’s resignation, I felt conflicted about supporting the organization: “Can I continue to sign up for races and contribute financially to NYRR knowing that it has failed its employees of color?”. I do appreciate their commitment to embracing diversity and recognizing the harm that was done, but I hope that they are also taking steps that lead to their employees of color feeling truly valued and respected.
Allan
Do you think that with the statements, are organizations making good on those promises? There’s this anti-racism statement PPTC put out. Are we taking action, or are we being performative?
Jennie
I think that's yet to be seen. I think, if there's good intention and good follow through, the make-up of our board will change and the demographics of the club itself should also shift. I haven't given more thought to the specific actions. When I look at New York Road Runners who’ve been so tone deaf, and now that they're slowly coming around, I see them slapping Ted Corbett's name on things or a person of color on their social media posts, and we all know they’re not the only ones guilty of this... I look at it all a bit cynically, but I also ask myself: Oh, this is what we want. Right? So it might start out looking performative, but as we make BIPOC people more visible as to make good on our actions, maybe it will be performative until it's not.
“A lot of people are either unaware or choose to ignore the experiences runners of color face. It’s no longer an option to say I’m only here for running and racing, and this is separate from politics. It’s not.”
Allan
I want to thank you for having this conversation. I did want to add one more question before I let you guys go. How can we build empathy for this conversation amongst our readers, amongst our members, our teammates, who might be coming at this conversation from a different angle? Who believe themselves to be well-intentioned and progressive, but won’t touch this conversation? How can we build empathy amongst our readers, our teammates, while being mindful of our own limitations?
Jennie
I've been thinking lately about how Black men and Asian women sometimes experience perceptions that are the polar opposite of each other, but can result in the same outcome. Black men are treated as presumptively criminal, or perceived as a weapon while Asian women are perceived as submissive, docile, and non-threatening. Both these perceptions invite aggression and violence. I read that for Black men, there's a pattern in which middle-class Black men exercise at much lower rates in majority white neighborhoods than they do in majority Black or mixed ones (see the conversation with Ken De Vignes), and that's because they routinely experienced harassment and mistreatment in white spaces. They're more likely to be killed by police when they're not attacking or if they don't have a weapon. I'd ask people to ask themselves: Do you have to move about your lives in a way that makes you vulnerable? And if the answer is no, then use that privilege to empathize and advocate for better outcomes for those who do.
Mario
I think Jennie is on the money: I think interrogating our privilege, and having people find safe spaces for these conversations to happen. Maybe it starts with bringing these uncomfortable conversations to the fore, including our monthly membership meetings, like when Ben spoke to the club. A lot of people are either unaware or choose to ignore the experiences runners of color face. It's no longer an option to say I'm only here for running and racing, and this is separate from politics. It's not.
Allan
Right. It’s easy to say: It’s running, it’s separate from politics. But most runners who would say that are not people of color, it’s not their lived experience.
PPTC is a diverse and supportive team. We want to celebrate the diversity of our club and membership. We welcome and encourage everyone to share their stories with us.
Questions & interview moderated by: Allan Co (he/him)
Text & photos by: Jennie Matz (she/her) and Mario Patiño (he/him)
Edited by: Alison Kotch (she/her)
Produced by: Rachael DePalma (she/her)