Moving Running Forward: Leo & Stephanie
MODERATED BY ALLAN CO, THIS INTERVIEW IS WITH LEO GIL AND STEPHANIE MEI.
This is the fourth piece of a five-part interview series with members of PPTC’s BIPOC running community. This series focuses on conversations with runners of color about their experiences as a minority in the club. Further, this series is part of a larger effort of DEI initiatives in the club and beyond.
This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Allan (he/Him)
Do you two know each other Leo and Steph?
StephAnie (She/Her)
Yeah.
Allan
I hope that we can move into just really easy conversation, but the first question is: Why did you first start running? And how long have you been a member of PPTC, and what drew you specifically to running, and to PPTC?
Steph
I started running again in 2018, shortly after quitting my job. At that time, I just purchased a Fitbit — I saw how few steps I was taking, how few calories I was burning (compared to how many I was taking in). I had always wanted to get back into running so that I could hike through deep snow when snowboarding, but the fire to run was burning hotter after my dad had his heart attack in 2015. Between this health crisis and my own bad cholesterol trending upward I had cause for concern. For over a decade, I neglected to take proper care of my health.
I think over the course of running, it was getting lonely where I was, so I was looking for free options. I came across Open Run hosted by NYRR at the Brooklyn Bridge Park site. And I started becoming a frequent runner there on Tuesday nights. The people that showed up consistently were Michael Ring and Larry Sillen, and I was drawn to them because they were just consistent figures in the area, and they were always open to conversation. And eventually that's what brought me over to PPTC. So I think I ended up joining in late August 2018.
Steph at PPTC’s 50 Miler in December 2020.
Leo (he/Him)
I was a pretty heavy kid when I was in high school. Before I graduated high school, I got into rugby. I started playing with the rugby team, and they basically forced us to run and condition. I don't know how fast I was then, but I was one of the faster guys on the team. Once I left high school, I just stopped running for a while, but I got a job two years later, where I had to take the bus. And then eventually I started walking home, and walking turned to running. So I’ve been running for like 12ish years straight.
Two years ago I was losing a side job that I had at the time. I had just finished the marathon, and had this feeling during training that all my running goals were leading up to that moment. Once I was done, I didn't really feel like I had anywhere else to go, and it kind of felt empty. I didn’t want to find a new community. I think I was invited by another running group to go to an open run that PPTC was doing to a brewery; I did that. And then I kind of just joined on a whim after that and stuck around since then. I think that was about a year and a half ago.
Allan
Well, that's a great story. I can't imagine you as a heavy kid or rugby player because I think of you as a svelte runner.
Leo
I was terrible at rugby. I was very small. I got tossed around a lot.
Allan
Rugby will do that to you. So I started running after college, because I was looking for something inexpensive to keep me in shape. I was a rower in college, and rowing is a very expensive sport outside of school. So I started running after college, and I've been running ever since. I joined PPTC when I moved back to New York City with my husband in 2012. 2021 is going to be my 10th year with PPTC. I liked it because in 2012 there was a good community. It was inexpensive. And it was diverse. One of the first things I did was go to one of Tony and Charlene speed classes, and it was a diverse group of people.
Can I ask how you two self identify and how, and or how you think you present? How about let's start with Leo.
Leo
Since I was in middle school, based on my name and what I look like and how I sound, I've gotten it all. I've gotten all types of Hispanic, all types of middle Eastern. I've gotten Irish based on my name. I've gotten Greek, but both of my parents are from the Dominican Republic. My mom is a lot more mixed than my father is. You could look at my father and say, “Oh yeah, his family came from Spain.”
My mom is a lot darker. I’m still one of the lighter people in their pretty dark family. And they're all Dominican. I'm 100% Dominican. I’m the son of immigrants though. My sister and I, we’re the youngest of three. My sister and I were born here. Everybody else was born over there.
Steph
I'm largely Chinese, and Chinese-American. I found out that my great-great-grandmother from my mother's side was Indian, and came into the family because my great-great-grandfather was looking for a wife, and took her as a wife somehow. I don't fully understand the story because my Toisanese isn't great, but also nobody really knows the story. But to circle back to the question: Chinese-American. As I present, I don't think there are any questions that I fall under “Asian.”Unless you identify as Asian yourself, no one else really bothers to make the distinction between the various Asian identities. So I’m lumped into “Asian”.
Allan
And how do you find the running scene in New York City and specifically in PPTC in terms of being inclusive and welcoming and what about other places?
In 2012 when I joined, I actually remember I made some of my best friends in New York City - I mean, I am still making some of my best friends in New York City, through PPTC. And I remember on my first run with PPTC we were running across the Brooklyn Bridge and I met a woman named Tina [Marie Lohela]. I was newly married, and she was newly married. And she was asking me personal questions about my life, that's when I decided I'm just going to say my husband, and not worry about how people judge me. It was actually very fortunate because Tina taught at Achievement First, a low income and very diverse elementary school. She's very much an ally, in that she's thinking about these things all the time. And I wouldn't say this is just an anecdote: I wouldn't say I would have that same boldness in identifying myself in a run today. Do you find it inclusive and welcoming?
Steph
I think it's variable: PPTC, I've come to see as a bit of a microcosm of New York City. With PPTC and inclusivity, largely yes, though there are pockets of cliques. We do have specific members who are consistently warm and welcoming, but not everyone in the club is like that.
There are times where I'm in these spaces where I'm just like...why won't anybody talk to me? Or: why won't anybody come up to me? This happened to me several times when I first started volunteering at races - I had no idea who anyone was or who to go to with questions. I do remember like when I first joined PPTC, and the tables at the general membership meetings...I started sitting at them and it just felt weird to be there.
There were people who already knew each other having conversations with one another and I'm the new person. I’d end up awkwardly and inadvertently eavesdropping in on conversations. Even though we have the general membership meeting, the opportunity to socialize is very limited because like, again, you have the pairs, you have a little bit of time to eat pizza and like, you know, chat a little, make small talk at the tables, and then we have the meeting. And then after the meeting, everybody goes home. I've since set the intention to sit at the back of the room at every general membership meeting. And if there's a new person, I'm going to turn and talk to them and make them a little uncomfortable, but let them know that: Hey, I'm a friend, and if you want a warm body or a buddy here, I'm here to show them the ropes. I don't want anyone to feel the same way that I did at those meetings - overwhelmed and uncertain. And I don't really want anyone to get the impression that it gets too cliquish.
The inclusive piece is challenging and one I continue to struggle with today. We advertise that we are an inclusive running club, but I’ve come to realize what that really means - it means that we are very open to having athletes of all levels and abilities join us in hopes of them growing their running potential, but we are not wholly inclusive in thought. As humans, many of us do not handle (critical) feedback well. It is taken personally - often met with defensiveness. I’m working on this myself, but I’ve observed that people often view complaints as complaints as opposed to feedback about how the club can do better. When complaints are processed as complaints or a challenging thought is ignored or dismissed, I grow a little disheartened.
Leo cheering at a race
Leo
I agree with Stephanie that it's a reflection of the society we're in. I've never found any club in the city any more or less inclusive or exclusive to anybody else. But I also just felt like everybody was kind of in a microcosm of society in general, where people inadvertently just roam around people that like them.
A lot of people generally want an empathetic or sympathetic ear and somebody who immediately clicks with them. If somebody is struggling with something that another person doesn’t understand and they don't know them well enough, more often than not, people won’t try their best to get to the bottom of why they might not fit in. They’ll just go, “Oh, that person's weird.” And then they'll kind of just go into their own crew. There are also positive people, who I have turned to - I would have quit [PPTC] multiple times when I've gotten frustrated with issues in the club - because they were somebody who would listen multiple times, when I voiced frustration.
There are some clubs where I feel like, “Okay...this is just a collection of people who are trying to get faster AND they’re community.” As much as we're all trying to improve, we are just a collection of runners. I think there's an aspect of that of PPTC, but since it's so big and there's a lot of people in the club, I feel like there's an element of community here beyond, and now we're going to post as many good numbers as possible.
One of my issues with the general meetings, beyond the fact that there's very little opportunity for people to socialize is there's also a strong emphasis on accomplishments. It's great, but as a person who doesn't really care about his own accomplishments anymore, it’s more about being a part of something that everyone cares about. It feels like we're putting an emphasis on this over community.
“One of my issues with the general meetings, beyond the fact that there’s very little opportunity for people to socialize is there’s also a strong emphasis on accomplishments. It’s great, but as a person who doesn’t really care about his own accomplishments anymore, it’s more about being a part of something that everyone cares about.”
Allan
I think that in the past five or six years, it's gotten to be more about running accomplishments and less about community, about PPTC as a community organization. And what I'm hearing from you, Leo, is, you wish that was a stronger portion of what we're doing, right? Because ostensibly, we are a community organization. But in practice, are we actually doing that? I don't know.
I do think the inclusion part is part of that, right? There are all these cliques, and certain cliques have the loudest voice, and right now, the clique with the loudest voice is talking about runner accomplishments. Like, is that inclusive of people that want to leverage PPTC as a community organization?
Leo
Yeah. It's strange too, because in the pandemic, there are very few running accomplishments that we can talk about, but I feel like the food exchanges, and the gift exchanges, and prior to the pandemic, like the food runs that were done, were like a good element of what I was looking for when I joined PPTC. I joined because of a brewery run. I didn't really join to get any faster. And I feel like most other people join the club under similar circumstances. Whether they became one of those people who started pushing themselves to get faster, I feel like most people would want to join a club like that to have a sense of community. When I saw that's what it was...I was just like, Oh, all right. I've walked away from other places because of this.
Allan
That's important to hear, but it’s also really inspiring that you're thinking about this more as a community organization. That is a line that I've tried to tell for a while, that doesn't seem to be getting a lot of traction. And I'm hoping that these conversations will help push us in that direction.
StepH
I just really want to highlight that one of our missions is to support running in Brooklyn. And you can make a very loose interpretation of that. People who suffer from mental health issues: running is what they do to help them get through the bad days. So what are we doing to support, amplify, and normalize/prioritize mental health?
I really admire all the community work Queens Distance Runners and the Queens Collective did since the start of the pandemic. They regularly got together to clean up their neighborhood & parks, donated to NYC Housing Authority, collected donations for members that were adversely impacted by the pandemic, etc. That kind of work screams community — an awareness of how much one unconsciously takes from the community and working to reinvest one’s time and resources.
Our mission is to support running in Brooklyn, and it's a loose interpretation, and there are many ways that we can do it in addition to celebrating runner accomplishments. There are giving efforts we can do to support organizations like Back On My Feet and we do, but there's more. It would be awesome if there was just an expansion on that, just to make this space a little bit more inclusive. Like there's always – there's always the capability of being better.
Allan
I wonder: this question was drafted in the context of race. In terms of us being more inclusive, I wonder, how often do we find ourselves in the minority, and what is our reaction to that? Does that influence what we think of as inclusive? How often do you feel that you're in the minority? What's your reaction to that?
Steph
As a leader in the club, I understand the importance of being candid in conversations, because the club is supposed to be a safe space for me to express my thoughts and opinions. But I don’t always feel that way.
Prior to raising a concern or opinion of any kind, I go through this mental checklist of And I would like for this to come out, because these are conversations that we need to be having in order to make places be a little bit more inclusive. It's a combination of feedback, and just talking about our feelings, and about how actions impact us.
So I'm talking about elements of the club, but in terms of racial minorities? I dunno if I can really cover so much about the racial minority, because there is a noticeable number of Asians in the club. We do have our inside jokes about what it's like to be Asian, and knocks on our shared experiences in our Asian upbringing, right. Where I am in the minority though, is when it comes to… just being vulnerable? There aren't a lot of people that are openly and honestly vulnerable, and it makes it really hard for this space to feel safe for me.
Honestly, I don't want to keep my feelings to myself, but I have to, because otherwise, it's going to make people uncomfortable. I don't want to be honest about what's going on in my life, because then people are going to use that to judge me...and I've withheld. And it kind of sucks being in that space, but I also am in this place where I have had to navigate who's safe and who's not.
Leo and pup :)
Leo
As far as inclusivity and feeling like I don't fit in the club in the context of race, I find the club to be no more exclusive than any other area that I've ever been in my life post childhood. I grew up in the suburbs of New York City; I was one of two Latin American households. I was the only one that didn't have mixed race parents, I was either in advanced or regular classes in high school and middle school.
Even though we went to a pretty diverse high school, I was usually one of the only Latin American kids in the class. Every single setting that I was in in college, and post-college, I was one of the few Brown people in the room. So it never occurs to me like: Oh yeah, wait, what's going on here? I'm just like, Oh, all right, I'm in a room again. I usually gravitate to one of the other Brown people in the room, going, Hey...yeah! We're some of the only Brown people in the room! What is it, the fourth time today that this has happened? But I've never found that to be by design. It's just a matter of like...this is society. If you are a middle class, or upper middle class person, in a diverse area, it's more than likely that you're going to find less and less Brown people because they tend to self-segregate amongst themselves. It makes sense to me that the running community reflects that as well, because it's a pretty high cost...when you get down to it, a high cost, a barrier, [it’s] a hobby that requires a lot of free time or resources that they don’t have.
Allan
No it's funny: you're saying that running is a high cost barrier: Yes. But how much of that is innate to running, and how much of it is because of the choices that we as a club make, right? We talk about the social aspects of going running, and the income stratification that makes up the running community. I know that our social events are all in the type of establishment that you're talking about. Mostly white, mostly affluent bars. It's not lost on me that we've had our annual Christmas party at Halyards, which is literally a Maine-themed bar. Maine has the highest percentage of white people in the country. We do our new member runs to DeKalb market, in an expensive development - it's a sign of gentrification specifically in a Black commercial corridor. Fulton Mall is known as an established, commercial strip, specifically frequented by people of color. Those things aren't lost.
Something else Steph said made me think of the other conversations...another runner that I spoke to talked about when she enters a space she has a list of boxes to check about her vulnerability. Like: I'm a woman? Check. I'm a minority? Check. I'm petite? Check. Here are the ways I'm vulnerable. And here are the guards in the way that I'm code switching, in order to navigate that. I do want to get into code switching for both of you.
Steph
The best example of an experience that I have when I'm code switching is I'm very much an observer, right? I don't like to reveal myself too much in a space, because generally society just doesn't make that safe, right? I listened to the common topics of discussion: Running. Marathons. 5k. Shoes. And I hate talking about that so much. I joined PPTC because I was looking for friends...and also looking to run, right? But this code switch here is...everyone's talking about races, racing & running gear , but why can't we talk about, I don't know, plants? Why can’t there be more people who run but also have other interests? I do recognize that there are things I just am not comfortable sharing, just because like, I am not a part of that culture.
Also, I code switch in meetings ALL the time. If you’ve ever had a one-on-one interaction with me, you’d know ;).
Leo
It's a nuanced answer for me, becauseI grew up in the suburbs, because of the circumstances that I was in. And I had weird interests. There's a term, “BLERD,” where it's basically like Black nerd or Brown nerd. I've always found I identified with that tag. A rapper once made a comment about how he always felt like he was too white for Black kids, and too Black for the white kids.
And that resonates with me, too: I've often found that I either have to code switch, or just immediately realize I don't belong somewhere and then just leave. I do an element of code switching in terms of how I speak or how I act, or how I present myself. I am just more likely to say: I don't want to be here...there's only so much I can stand about like being a part of a conversation that I don't really want to be a part of.
Steph
Another way that I code switch is that I have to dial myself back so that everyone else is comfortable? How much do I have to make myself small again so that everyone else is comfortable, so I can preserve the homeostasis? How much do I have to change, so that everyone else is like, hunky-dory, right?
It prevents me from showing up, right? Like my whole life, I have been denied who I am. I have not been able to like show up in spaces, until I started finding people that were safe, the people that are willing to have these conversations with me, and the people that are willing to say – and 100% believe that what you're going through? It's hard, and it's okay. I think I’m venting about the club culture.
Steph racing at a track meet with Murray close behind.
Allan
If you talk about not being able to show up because people have a certain expectation of the way that you're supposed to be. Those expectations are informed by everything that we're supposed to be talking about, right? Like you said, you're only getting 40% of you because too much of you is probably gonna run counter to what they expect from the way you look.
Can you both share some examples, negative or positive, related to race and running?
Leo
I don't know if I feel comfortable saying what club this was, but after a run with another club, I got into a weird racial argument with somebody and then never went back. That's one of the only blatant issues with race in New York City, specifically. With PPTC, I guess it always just goes back to that level of pseudo-societal segregation where, because I'm a person who is into running and because I'm single, I don't have any obligations. As far as my family goes and I have a little money to be into this hobby, I always feel a level of discomfort that I'm the only Latin-American in a room or one of the few, and have to hide how I feel about things.
I felt really angry when – after everything that happened over the summer – New York Road Runners was advertising their Return to Running event. And I thought, Are we really just gonna forget everything we learned this summer, everything you heard about these assholes, what they did, and then just go run around running? I posted on the Google Group before I just unsubscribed from the Google Group and stopped looking at it all together. Is it weird that we're all just going to pretend the Rebuild New York Road Runners social media group isn't pointing out the fact that these people are messed up? And they're like, yeah, yeah, we have some people on that.
Steph
I am so glad you're bringing this up Leo. I'm gonna take advantage of what you're saying, because as it relates to running and race in New York City, and in the club - a few things. They don't happen blatantly, and that's what hurt. Microaggressions happen in – they thrive in – white (supremacy) cultural norms. I have been shut down multiple times, because I'm too progressive. What I'm trying to say is that the racial barrier that prevents us and the racial experience that I experience with the club is the culture that perpetuates the white supremacy cultural norms or white cultural norms. The truth is these white cultural norms and the perpetuation of it, is my experience of racism.
It is a handful of people in the club that care deeply about this and are actively doing work. What gets me is that a lot of it – it's the same people, the BIPOC runners, the ones that have to check out because they can't take on the emotional load of...trying to change the culture of the club. And then there are the people that don't believe in it. And then there are the people that just aren't even affected at all.
I've been in conversations where someone asked me that, why push so hard? What they were trying to say is that a lot of people aren't affected by this, or they don't care about it. They care more about running.
Allan
Have you ever unsafe or unwelcome in a running related situation because of your race, or maybe more specifically because of your position on race? What does safety and welcoming look like? What does it mean to feel unsafe or unwelcome?
This was something that came up in the very beginning and it feels unwelcome and unsafe if they don't want to hear your concerns. If people don't want to run with you, because they're concerned that you might bring up questions about race and the way things are being dealt with, that's not feeling welcome.
“ in terms of how racism shows up in our club, it’s just the people who just aren’t on the same plane or where you are with the journey. How do you talk to them about how problematic their behavior is without feeling like you’re going to be targeted? ”
Leo
I've never felt unwelcome, or uncomfortable because of that, but I agree with what Steph was saying: I feel like for most people that I find in the community it's just a non-issue, or they just don't care because they're not invested or they're not that involved, but they don't even go so far as to say what is going to bring this up. You're not automatically pegged as a person who's a troublemaker. Some people might and some people definitely do, but I feel like for the overwhelming majority, it's just in one ear. That's how little they care.
Steph
I want to highlight what happened to me when we (PPTC board officers & directors, along with some members of our Diversity Committee) were preparing to meet with NYRR’s senior leadership and board chairman. . I asked to take the lead on the NYRR meeting because I received pushback in our letter to NYRR for naming listing actionable items that Road Runners could take. In the prep meeting, two of our board members asked that I not be so impassioned when speaking with NYRR. Other comments from our board included: “Who are we to hold [NYRR] accountable? We don't really know anything ourselves” and that not every member of the club is concerned with what we’re doing. That experience was problematic (for me).
Not only was my tone policed, but I was challenged in having any basis in the way I was asking NYRR to be better. I was disappointed with the lack of awareness in how critical it was to an actionable item in our letter to NYRR. Without something for us to benchmark [NYRR’s] progress, we would have like every other virtue signaling & performative organization out there - just paying lip service. What message would that send to our members and to the community?
I was a combination of livid, shocked, and disappointed after hearing this coming from members of our own leadership who were ostensibly supportive of our anti-racist efforts and in performing our due diligence in leveraging our club size to hold a local running industry giant accountable for the biggest way NYRR failed our community. I was doing everything possible to hide how badly I was shaking from my frustration.
I don’t know how I would have made it through both meetings had I not strategized with two other attendees — sharing with them the anticipated pushback and asking them to prepare to re-amplify one another.
We have an anti-racism statement, right? Shouldn't ALL the leaders in the club be behind that or at least recognize that there is a louder ask that our leaders abide by such a statement?
We need more allies in this space.
Allan
To echo what Steph was saying without excusing it, sometimes if you're older...I have a feeling [some people were] brought up very differently; progressed through life differently. And you think about how we code switch. And I think about how [they] might've had to code switch. I'm just trying to be mindful and empathetic.
Something that Steph brought up, is an ongoing theme. If the goal is to try to bring everyone to a certain level of compassion and empathy, understanding where we all are now and understanding where everyone else might be, I think is the first step.
Steph
I think what I'm trying to say is that in terms of how racism shows up in our club, it's just the people who just aren't on the same plane or where you are with the journey. How do you talk to them about how problematic their behavior is without feeling like you're going to be targeted?
Allan
Without hoisting this burden of teaching everyone how to deal with racism – I wonder what can readers do to better empathize with the challenges that we're all facing? The challenges that BIPOC runners are facing, or like the challenges that people who don't feel it's inclusive are facing?
Steph
People should actually do the internal reflection and accept that they're playing a role in perpetuating systems of oppression. The other thing is reading up on basic principles. That’s what I do. Like this journey is really awesome: I'm actually stepping into who I'm supposed to be because of being so engaged in learning how to be ananti-racist. The internal reflection, humility, and just really knowing and admitting the role/my privilege that you play in perpetuating racism systemically or not. Most importantly, reading up on white cultural norms and taking inventory of how your daily behaviors uphold a culture that prevents marginalized identities from showing up and feeling remotely comfortable in shared spaces.
The most challenging piece is getting people to empathize with the emotional stress that comes with being BIPOC or any marginalized identity. We’re often told that if we presented our feedback differently or if we didn’t behave a certain way, our feedback would be better received. Can you recall a time when you were victim blamed? Imagine being someone of obviously low confidence and being denied a larger raise relative to your white cis-male peer with less experience because you need to present better and be more confident even though you produce great work, caught billion dollar data errors on multiple occasions, and caught errors in work outside of your job description.Or, recall the disappointment that fell across Ralphie’s face in “A Christmas Story” each time he excitedly told someone all the reasons why he wanted a BB gun for Christmas only to receive the dismissive response: “You’ll shoot your eye out”. It’s moot to ask someone what they want and to then respond with “No”. Or what about being a womxn who was physically attacked and then being told that it could have been avoided if they didn’t wear such body conforming clothes? Or being a large person and having family members/friends tell you how you should diet or exercise under the guise of concern for your health?
“There’s an element that I feel like it’s like everyone is to blame for this in some capacity. But in terms of this, I feel like everybody has to get into their head that it’s not somebody else’s problem, nor is it somebody else’s job to fix this. I feel like everybody has to do their part to question the systems that might be perpetuating this, whether it’s comfortable for them or not.”
Leo
There's an element that I feel like it's like everyone is to blame for this in some capacity. But in terms of this, I feel like everybody has to get into their head that it's not somebody else's problem, nor is it somebody else's job to fix this. I feel like everybody has to do their part to question the systems that might be perpetuating this, whether it's comfortable for them or not. Questioning the systems that they directly support, and whether it's completely and utterly right. I kind of felt like the idea of a PPTC diversity committee was just like the club going, it's their problem.
Most people are going think, Okay: They're going to solve racism in the club, in the running community and I can go back to doing whatever I was going to do, because I'm part of this club that has this committee.
I think it's like there has to be a middle ground between, “we've elected these five people to solve racism.” And it's actually something that everybody directly has to deal with all the time.
It is a problem that everybody either has to face or is responsible for. And everybody has to be in that conversation to kind of do something about it. Everybody has to listen and actually ask questions and ask what they can do, as opposed to putting a black picture on their Facebook profile picture and say, “I'm not talking today. I was in the moment of silence.”
Allan
In terms of something you guys brought up, something that I've been hearing and that we've reflected on in a couple of other conversations is the idea of virtue signaling. But we have to start somewhere with it, right? Waiting for someone else to do something, I just don't think is tenable.
Leo
I feel like this year has turned me into this, but I feel like by default I'm more cynical than anything. So take a lot of the things that I say with a grain of salt.
“We’ve seen our hopes raised so many times only to be let down. It’s the same cycle. So that cynicism makes sense. My resentment makes sense. The frustration makes sense.”
Steph
The cynicism makes sense, right? Because where's the trust? We've seen our hopes raised so many times only to be let down. It's the same cycle. So that cynicism makes sense. My resentment makes sense. The frustration makes sense.
Leo
I had a conversation with a white friend of mine who said that the hope she carries is that every single time a flashpoint situation like George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery happens, less people go back to not caring. I definitely see more and more people that I know who normally never cared about this kind of thing, or never questioned, or never really put an ear to anything outside of their own circle and their own personal interests actually actively caring and carrying the lessons that they learned at the beginning of the summer to now. It seems like they're going to continue doing that. So that's where my optimism lays and that's all, it's the only place that shows.
PPTC is a diverse and supportive team. We want to celebrate the diversity of our club and membership. We welcome and encourage everyone to share their stories with us.
Questions & interview moderated by: Allan Co (he/him)
Text & photos by: Stephanie Mei (she/her) and Leo Gil (he/him)
Edited by: Alison Kotch (she/her)
Produced by: Rachael DePalma (she/her)