Moving Running Forward: Sara & Allan

THIS CONVERSATION IS BETWEEN SARA DEVINE AND ALLAN CO TO WRAP- UP AND REFLECT ON THIS SERIES.

This is the fifth and final piece of a five-part interview series with members of PPTC’s BIPOC running community. This series focuses on conversations with runners of color about their experiences as a minority in the club. Further, this series is part of a larger effort of DEI initiatives in the club and beyond.

This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Sara

It's funny, Allan, because we just had the pre-conversation before we had the official conversation. You talked about openness, and how that might be part of this conversation, and that's going into the blog. I love the blog series. I love the concept. I love the openness of the blogs that have already come out, the invitation for some of our BIPOC teammates to share their experiences. And I'm very honored that you asked me to do this interview with you. So thank you. Can you talk a little bit about how the blog series came to be?

Allan

Yes. Before I do that, I want to say it's really important to me that I did involve you. You and I have been talking about this in one way or another for a year, and really this is the first time we're doing it one-on-one. I feel like I've gotten to know you quite a bit and I love that we have this opportunity to chat more intimately.

When you have these types of conversations and you're doing this kind of work, it's really important that you find your allies and the people that you can support. It's easy to talk about allyship as a concept, but to see who's doing the work and who's an ally on the ground, it's a different story.

I think you've done a really good job of creating a safe space around you. So kudos to you. And it's important that we have this conversation between myself and you as an ally, you as a white person, because I think that can be very important and powerful.

The blog series has been in the works for six months. PPTC and members in the club have been taking action around the conversation of race and running for the past year. I became more vocal about certain things as the PPTC diversity committee took off, really just asking more questions.

The one question that I really stood on was about our communications. It started to nag on me that whoever or however communications was being assembled, it presented a very homogenous and a somewhat untruthful image of who we were. There were a number of things compounding that. But what really struck a chord for me, I think, was when at the end of last spring, there was an eight-part blog series about parenting: PPTC Parents in the time of COVID. And it struck me that every single person in this eight part series was white. You know, we like to pride ourselves on being inclusive on being diverse, but if that's the case, we weren't seeing it.

I started making some noise, I kept bringing up issues about our communications, about how we were signaling or not signaling. One of the board members asked me if I'd be interested in writing a blog post about what it was like to be a BIPOC runner in PPTC. And I thought about it for a while, but I also thought: There is no way that my lived experience is going to encompass the sort of the spectrum of challenges that my BIPOC teammates face.

There are very different lived experiences amongst the minority populations in the world and in our club. So I pitched back the idea of doing a series - conversations that sought to bring these voices to the fore. I understand that there have been challenges in getting those voices out, but I thought I could help facilitate these important conversations, and that's how it came about.

Sara

Yeah, I love that. Oftentimes I see in this work, not necessarily unique to the club— I do this work in my professional capacity as well—in other arenas, in these DEIA conversations, a person of color brings up a concern, and it is put back to them to be the solution.

I'm not sure where my question is with this, but I'm reflecting on that, that observation that you, I love how you called it, “you made noise”. You've been a consistent voice pushing the club to think critically about our DEIA efforts.

I do reflect and wonder a little bit about what it means to bring up an issue and then basically be told: Okay, solve it. How does that play out in your mind? Is that a common issue you're finding? Where does that go for you? Where does that put you in a head space?

Allan

It's really challenging because my professional work is very much steeped in social equity, it has a lot to do with race. I work in affordable housing development. I work in neighborhood and community development, and all these types of conversations, all these types of issues that come up. So in some ways I may be well prepared in a way to confront these issues, but I also have that added mental weight and as I’ve worked with Rachael and Alison to roll this series out, I recognize the toll of that burden on my mental well being.

It's a tricky question because it's such a barrier. In my line of work, and in my personal life, I am trying to remove barriers to move solutions forward. And my perspective is, if this needle is not going to move because these barriers are in place, because nobody will do this work, then what can we do than try to do something ourselves?

Right now the timing seems right, and it won't always be that way. So despite that extra mental weight to try to move things along, the world might not be as receptive as it is now.

I do think about the way that readers or club members might reflect on their own about this work: there's a lot of positive energy; I hope that that positive energy translates more into some of those people taking on the weight themselves.

So it's a process and it's not perfect. But if the alternative right now is not getting anything done, what choice do we have? I think it's unfortunate that we are in a place with the club that the burden falls on the people that it's impacting most, as you’re alluding to, but for us to move away from that, something has to happen.

Sara

I want to delve into that a little bit too, but before we go too far, you mentioned your professional life. Being a runner is a shared identity that the readers of this blog, our teammates, we share the identity of runner. Are there other identities you would like folks in the club to know about if they don't already, that you would use to describe yourself?

Allan

Sure. You know, it's interesting how these things can change and I'm sure we've all experienced that somewhere in the past three or four years. My identity has become strongly linked to my family. I very much identify as husband and father, almost before anything else.

I also identify as LGBT, I identify as a person of color, specifically mixed race, Asian and Hispanic, but not Latino, because I have ancestry from Spain, not Latin America. Those were the big ones. It’s funny because I think on the list of identities, “runner” for me is very low. It's a hobby for me, not an identity. I think that has changed, and it might change again. It's easier to identify as a runner in a group of runners, but it's really low on my list.

Sara

Yeah, that's so interesting to me because it belies my own self-identity for me to assume that other people are self-identifying as runners, so there's an insight into my own psyche and my own thought process. And at the same time, you're saying it's listed as very low in your self-identity priorities in terms of what springs to mind to describe you, how you would describe yourself.

You are what I consider a longtime member in the club. You've been in the club for a long time. And within that, as we just talked about, you put in a lot of emotional labor into a group that reflects a hobby that's actually kind of low on your priority list. So tell me more.

Allan

I would be interested in hearing more about everyone's sort of thoughts about this because yes: PPTC is a running club. But what struck me about PPTC when I joined, is that I associate PPTC less as a running club per se, and more as a community organization. Obviously those two aren't mutually exclusive, but I think that the amount of energy and resources that we put into our community is really important. This is a running club, but the most important thing for me is the clubs commitment to the community.

Sara

So yes, it's running, but really it's a community group. And so that emotional labor and energy you put into the group is because of the community. So is that what I'm hearing?

Allan

Yes. And that service to community really shone especially during the pandemic. We have leveraged that power to interface with the community and to care for our community.

Sara

So how long have you been in the club and why did you join the first place?

Allan

I joined in November of 2012. It's funny because on one hand, it doesn't seem like that long ago, but it is a long time ago. I’m approaching my 10th year in PPTC. I joined pretty much as soon as I moved to Brooklyn. I'm originally from New York, and I had lived across the country for different reasons. I joke that I joined PPTC after I came back from my running retirement, and was just trying to get back into shape. I joined PPTC because it seemed very welcoming.

At the time, it seemed very diverse, and it seemed like it had a level of commitment, and the right level of energy put towards running. It seemed like people could be competitive if they wanted to be, but people were really friendly, and running wasn't the top tier of people's identities. I was very fortunate in that within the first month, the people I connected with were very friendly. The first person I ever spoke to in PPTC is still one of my best friends. She no longer lives in Brooklyn, but it was a very welcoming and like-minded group.

Sara

Well, you and I have had a few conversations in the past about the way the club has shifted over time. You mentioned you felt like it was more diverse then, I have had similar conversations with others who are part of what I could consider your sort of “incoming class,” of new members at the time, feeling like it was more diverse then than now. Can you share a little bit about what you think has changed over time?

“There have been former members, BIPOC members, who were very strong presences in the club, who have left. Following up with them years later...they have said, I feel traumatized by this. And other members have left because they’ve been told not to bring up the issues we’re talking about now. ”

— Allan

Allan

I'm borrowing from the previous conversations here - I do want to talk to you more specifically about the interviews, because they were very revealing, very nuanced, and very thoughtful. One thing that Carla said was, we talked about the communication strategy and the social media presence and...there wasn't that presence 10 years ago. Social media has changed in the past 10 years, but people would just join based on something like a blogspot website. Facebook was barely a thing for community groups and people who just showed up, showed up. They were from the community, and that was a diverse group. As we’ve grown our online presence, which is an important thing, it's come to rely on the volunteers. And I don't want to diminish that important work, but it's come to rely on the volunteers who are connected to very specific groups, right? As our social media presence has grown, our signaling has become a lot more homogenous, a lot less diverse.

And I think that there is a real impact to active representation. Some of the other members who I spoke to have said their friends ask them, Why are you joining that group? It's white people. Why are you joining this group, when maybe this other group might serve you better?

I think on top of that, existing members have left because they have found it very draining. There have been former members, BIPOC members, who were very strong presences in the club, who have left. Following up with them years later...they have said, I feel traumatized by this. And other members have left because they've been told not to bring up the issues we're talking about now.

So I think like that's a part of it, and also in so far as PPTC draws from its geography, there's a compounding factor of gentrification of changing neighborhoods. And I think there is an inertia to try to develop community outreach in areas beyond what people think of as PPTC’s home turf. So, for example, I find it very interesting that we identify very closely with the park, but really we identify really closely with Park Slope.

Sara

It seems to be the nexus, right?

Allan

Yes, Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Carroll Gardens, Cobble Hill, Prospect Heights that type of local. So there are a lot of mitigating factors there.

Sara

I'd love to build on that with reflections of conversations you've had with past members and conversations you've had as part of this series, and how that has aligned with your experience and your thinking, or if it shifted it, what this series and those conversations have really brought forth for you.

Let's start with how many folks are in the series. This is the last one in this series, but in case people either didn't get to them or didn't read them all, how many were there and who did you get a chance to speak with?

Allan

Including yourself and myself, it's 10 members, all minorities except for yourself. We made a list, I drew on personal connections. I just reached out to people, most of whom I knew closely or people who I knew through other activities.

One thing that we hear a lot about in terms of minority voices in our communications is that interviews and participation is self-selecting. There is a narrative supported by this idea of self-selection that teammates of color don't want to be interviewed. For the most part, everyone I reached out to said yes, they would like to do it.

Sara

It's an interesting challenge. I find also for me, ruminating on this as well, about how to do better, how to do differently. It's one of those things – as you said, the social media and the photos – signaling is very white. It’s just who's connected to whom, and who's doing the work and in terms of volunteering and just how that naturally progresses.

The dangerous trap or assumption is if people aren't in the photos or didn't show up to the thing or didn't opt in and that asking “Who wants to be part of the blog,” isn't necessarily the best approach for everybody.

So how do we take a look at some of those processes to be more inclusive? What are the different outreach efforts or approaches to bringing other voices missing in this? I think that's my question.

Allan

It's one thing to say, “It's an opt-in situation,” but I think for some time there’s been this thought that “opt-in is the only thing we can do.” But it is not, and that mentality is a barrier. I think that there are other strategies that should be layered onto that.

And part of it might be that we keep asking. Asking these minorities, tapping people on the shoulder, stop assuming that those people will feel like they're being tokens.

Sara

I do think we fall into that trap that somehow, if we ask people of color to participate, that we will be– “we,” and I'll speak for myself as a white person– like we will be tokenizing our BIPOC teammates by asking for their representation in our channels, etc.

Allan

We've talked about that in these conversations – in every single one, the ideas of tokenism and overcoming it, came up. Things will seem like tokenism and .people will feel like they're being tokenized until they're not. Things will feel performative until they are not. And if we're worried about feeling like we're tokenizing people or that we're just being performative, that's just going to be a barrier for us.

Sara

What makes that better? Is it consistency in effort? For me, tokenism is always “the one and done,” or “let's try it out.” The single photo that has the people of color in it for all our social media needs. So is it “fake it till you make it” in terms of like, just keep asking because consistency is what does it? How does that work?

Allan

I can't answer that question. How often do we have to keep pushing this until it's authentic? I don’t know.

Sara

Right - that's a big question, right? Until it becomes part of our DNA, I guess, and second nature.

Allan

I remember one thing that Carla said: She said she could imagine that there's someone out there who's looking at our social media and is thinking, I might not fit in in this group because everyone looks the same, and I don't look like that. If one person somewhere down the road people can look at our channels and not even think, not even have to worry about that, I think that is progress. And I think it does come from constantly tapping people on the shoulder, from just admitting that you might make a mistake and that it might seem like tokenism, but understanding that you're playing the long game.

Sara

Yeah. That's a really good point. I think we get into a trap of the Perfect being the enemy of Good. Just being paralyzed by getting it wrong means you do nothing, which is definitely getting it wrong. So I like to think and hope that if we're making an honest effort, even knowing we're going to stumble, that an honest effort that is even a little bit misguided is at least an effort that we can learn from and grow from as opposed to doing nothing.

Allan

There is a fragility in worrying about being wrong. I am surrounded by people who are just worried about saying the wrong thing - or more specifically wanting to know what the right thing is, but also not owning the impact of the things that they do say. We have to own both - that we are fallible and that we have impact that can be unintentional.

“Just being paralyzed by getting it wrong means you do nothing, which is definitely getting it wrong. So I like to think and hope that if we’re making an honest effort, even knowing we’re going to stumble, that an honest effort that is even a little bit misguided is at least an effort that we can learn from and grow from as opposed to doing nothing. ”

— Sara

Sara

I think that's part of this larger conversation is that these actions all have impact, intended or unintended. I think that's part of the big question. I will say intent does matter, but that doesn't mean that you can't unintentionally have a negative impact. And then it's about doing the right thing to learn from that and do better in the future.

You've been putting a lot of work to make PPTC and the running community in New York as a whole more inclusive. On the PPTC diversity committee and this blog series as an excellent example of your work. You also helped to co-found the NYC Running Idea group, and got that off the ground before we had other leadership and a lot more help.

What, if anything, are you most proud of so far, and what would one thing be that you could see and be like, I feel like we've made progress with this. I'll feel like we make progress if X happens.

Is there anything that's happened so far that you feel that you feel is moving us in the right direction?

Allan

I don't think that there is a product. I honestly don't think there's a product yet for us to say we're proud of it - we have to keep moving this forward like it's a growing thing. I do think that people can look at the changes at New York Road Runners as something that is positive. That was done through the collective action of a lot of different people pushing.

Sara

External pressure and internal pressure.

Allan

But I do think that as far as something that I might've done personally, I think that my forcefulness with or my assertiveness with these conversations has empowered other people to speak up.

I think that I'm close enough with Stephanie to say I feel she feels empowered, that I’ve encouraged her telling her, Say these things that you believe in because other people will rally behind you, and I will rally behind you. And I think that Stephanie has become a very strong voice for this work in a way that I couldn't be. I don't know if I could be the face of this type of work in a way that Stephanie can be the face of this type of work. I think, and I hope, that people who might've been quieter can feel like this is a more open venue to speak about these things.

Sara

That's hugely important. You're saying it with some hesitancy for yourself, but I would say from someone in the club looking at the work, I would say absolutely you've done that. Just by being consistently vocal, by pushing back a bit, and pushing us to do better, that you have made space. Hopefully you’ve shown others that it's possible to speak up. People may or may not agree with you, but there is space for this now in a way that maybe there wasn't before, which I think is great.

I think that is definitely an impact I've seen that is, in large part, due to your actions. I can't say the causation, but I can see a ripple effect, if you will, of your vocal nature in this work. And others are also starting to speak up more. I think PaFoua has been incredibly vocal in this work. Stephanie is really growing in this work and I've seen you mentor her in this work and she's an amazing force in this right now.

Allan

I mean, I think there are small things, concrete things, and there are long-term things that can demonstrate progress. I love that there are these small project-based things moving forward. For example, there is a scholarship to help promote coaches of color, and it's a really important thing. I would love it if, as a club, we could examine each of our committees through the lens of diversity and inclusion. How are we supporting or not supporting our BIPOC members, our diverse members? I think long-term, at New York Road Runners, PPTC is starting to get a reputation as a white-dominant club that is making the most noise about race in running.

I would like to come to a place where we are not described as a “white-dominant club.” Again, we pride ourselves on being diverse, we pride ourselves on being inclusive, but being described as a “white-dominant club,” to me, says that is not how others see us. I'm not saying that 10 years ago it was perfect, but I did sort of lean into a club, a community organization, because I thought it was diverse and inclusive and I feel like we could get back to that point.

“The onus being on people of color to fix the problem when they’re not the problem; white people are the problem. White people need to be the solution, too. ”

— Sara

Sara

Yeah. We are a majority white club right now. But I agree: Having a vision of Prospect Park as a club that makes waves, or that is making change in terms of DEI work and running regardless of who we are in terms of the membership makeup.

Allan

The question that comes up a lot, I think, when we have speakers, when these issues come up is a general, is what are we supposed to do? What are people – what are our cis-gender white teammates, supposed to do? We're trying to address diversity. There's a lot to be said about people of color doing the emotional labor.

But I think what's really important is acknowledging that BIPOC people don't just know the answers. I'm not an expert. Everything I know I learned by listening. And it's a hard thing to learn, and it's a hard thing to talk about. But running is a hard thing to do. Training for a marathon is a hard thing to do. And everybody seems excited about doing those hard things. So what are your priorities? If this is important to you, take it upon yourself.

Sara

Gosh, yes: It comes up a lot. I think a little bit of what I was getting at, in my question earlier, about how you brought up an issue and someone said, So here, solve the problem. And I see it happen: The onus being on people of color to fix the problem when they're not the problem; white people are the problem. White people need to be the solution, too. I like to hope it's coming from a place of I'm lost, and you lived this, so maybe you have insight. I like to give people the benefit of doubt that maybe that's where it's coming from.

I do think that for me, in my attempts to be an ally, I’m learning more, listening, inviting voices to the table and taking a critical eye to be the person who speaks up and says: Wait a second, why are there only white people here? Or Wait a second, has anybody thought about this thing? It shouldn't be on people of color to be asking all those questions. It is about asking the questions. It's starting the conversation, and pointing the thing out, not necessarily about having answers.

“I hope that people can start to see where their teammates are coming from. That if we attach faces and friends and teammates to the experiences that you read about, then maybe that’ll move the dial for our peers and our greater club.”

— Allan

Allan

Mario, Morgan, and I are the co-chairs of the diversity committee and we have said, it's not enough to have someone from the diversity committee sit on every other committee. It’s about asking, how can those people push the conversation within those other committees? As they sit in these other committee meetings, could they just ask the question: How are we serving or not serving minorities through this action?

The conversations that I have had, there were very diverse responses. Which was sort of the point – I'm not going to speak for everyone.

There might be an underlying assumption that PPTC is not welcoming for people of color, but that's not necessarily the case. People lean and pivot on different things. We've had people say PPTC was not particularly inclusive ten years ago and then there were people who said they’ve never had a problem with the lack of diversity - there's a spectrum.

When we think about this work, and trying to get more and more people on board, one thing I hold on to is this idea that everyone comes to, and goes through, this type of journey on their own. It's not my place to judge, or try to correct how people get to a point where they're anti-racist; rather, I am hoping these conversations and this work opens up opportunities in that journey for our teammates and our readers to find anti-racism on their own.

This series was never meant to solve problems - it was always framed as a way to build empathy. In every conversation we ended with the question: How can readers build more empathy with the situation that you as a runner of color are in? I still don’t know the answer to that, having completed the project, but I hope that people can start to see where their teammates are coming from. That if we attach faces and friends and teammates to the experiences that you read about, then maybe that'll move the dial for our peers and our greater club.

Sara

Yeah, I think you're right – it's about empathy. That's, that's where it's all gotta begin.

PPTC is a diverse and supportive team. We want to celebrate the diversity of our club and membership. We welcome and encourage everyone to share their stories with us.

Text by: Sara Devine (she/her) and Allan Co (he/him)
Photos by (unless otherwise noted): Sara Devine (she/her) and Allan Co (he/him)
Edited by: Alison Kotch (she/her)
Produced by: Rachael DePalma (she/her)

Moving Running ForwardRachael DePalmaApril 20, 2021Comment